Видео: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=AriEbyHJWEQ

L: My name is Leigh Ing.I'm the executive director of the Texas Low Level Radioactive Waste Disposal Compact Commission.My education is I have two engineering degrees.I have an engineering degree in Civil Engineering, what we call a Bachelors, and I have a Masters of Science in Environmental Engineering.

O: What's your position on the Commission?

L: I'm the executive director.

O: May I ask you, what is your vision?Is it a good solution when the different states decided to organize a common disposal of radioactive waste?

L: I think it's a very good solution. Because if we didn't have the states be able to organize, then there would potentially need to be a lot more disposal sites.If a state couldn't combine with another state that already had disposal.It's very hard to locate these sites. And so without a compact system where they could join together, there may not be enough disposal sites. And our low-level radioactive waste might not be disposed of and might continue to be disposed of in places that you would not want it stored.

O: May I ask to describe the decision-making process because it is difficult to motivate people to have such storage sites?Who participated in the decision-making process? The role of the national authorities, operator, and the role of the non-government organizations?How to provide cooperation between the stakeholders.

L: It's a very good question and it's not easy.The way it worked in setting up the compact system, the federal government set up the law to allow states to cooperate.And so the federal system passed under the Atomic Energy Act a mechanism for the states to work together. And then the federal government said, OK, we gave you a law, now it's up to you states if you would like to work together. And then even when the states start to work together, like happened in Texas, for us to have our facility in Texas, you have to work now with the smaller governments, the counties, and the cities that are nearby. So the cooperation to have this happen starts at the federal level, but before you ever get this to work, you have to talk with the federal government, the state's government, the county government, the city government, and the local government. And if they are not all involved, it won't happen.

 O: So what is the role of the non-government organization in the decision-making process about the location?

L: For locating this facility, we knew, the federal government knew, there are standards that you have to follow before you can have a facility anywhere. And there are a lot of parts of the country that won't meet those standards. They don't have good soil.Or they get too much rain. And so part of it is determined, first of all, by where can it even be done safely. And then when you start looking at those locations, you begin the social aspect of it.You begin to have to outreach to folks to see, would you be willing to have a facility like this. I think one of the things that Texas does that help, other states don't do it, but Texas does it, not only for low-level waste disposal, but even for oil and gas production in this country, they ensure that some of the benefit that comes from that operation is given back to the community. So, for instance, in the case of the low-level waste facility, some of the money that that facility gets from taking waste in, stays with the community around there.The idea being that since you have this facility in your community, you will also get some of the benefit from it. And that helps a lot of people feel more comfortable, because they feel like they're part of the solution and they get part of the benefit if they're going to live with it. In the state of Texas, for oil and gas exploration, all the oil and gas exploration pays a severance tax that goes back into the local schools to help fund schools. So instead of the oil company getting to keep all of it, some of it must go back into the local communities or they don't get to participate. So that helps the social aspect of locating and permitting a site and helps bring people to the table if they that there's not just a detriment to them, but that there will be a benefit to go with that.

 O: What kind of regulation provides such cooperation between such stakeholders?Is it national, or regional, or municipal?

L: All of the above.There are different levels and different regulations. Like in the state of Texas, in order to have this facility, our state law requires a contested case process, with an opportunity for the community to come in and to protest it if they want. That's in state law, not federal law. And then sometimes counties will pass something called an ordinance, where they put in their laws how they want to participate. It varies, sometimes it can be confusing, very confusing, because there are different sets of laws in different parts of the country, different parts of the state. But without it, you won't have anything. So you just have to sometimes understand the confusion and learn about it.

 O: What is the most difficult moment in this process? What is the challenge in the decision-making process?

L: The most difficult thing, I see, is educating people. And sometimes the problem becomes that people don't want to become educated. They want to argue, but they don't want to become educated and understand the issue. And to me, that has been the most difficult thing in siting and in getting them authorized, not only for low level radioactive waste, but other sorts of facilities.Some people don't want to learn the issues, they just want to talk a lot. And that to me ... and they want to mislead others.I think sometimes that is the most difficult and the biggest burden for us is to try and not let that happen.

O: You spoke about education for people.But at the same time, can you say that you educated some people? I think we need not only to speak, but also to listen.

L: Yes, exactly.All of the processes require that people listen, and hear and listen and respond.A lot of times that requires getting a relationship going. Unless people begin to trust, and sometimes that is very hard. If people don't trust you, they aren't going to listen to you. And so one of the first steps, in a lot of these processes, is getting the right people in, and keeping the wrong people out. Not just in the public. But for the companies. And for government. Getting people in that communicate well and that can be trusted and maintain trust and make trust the most important thing they do, and ensuring that those people are brought into the process. If you don't have that, you don't have anything.

 Nat: Were you able to ask about how the Compact works at the state level?

L: The real answer to that is probably a whole new video.Because it's very complicated. He did ask that. But the complexities are always in the details.The quick answer is that the federal government passed the Atomic Energy Act that put forward a compact system, and told the states, work together and make compacts if you want to, we're out of it.But the process that it takes for two states to start talking, and then to talk to the local communities, and then also talk to their industries that will generate low level radioactive waste that would go to the facility, and is this a good idea, and how should we do it, and who should look at what, and what should Texas do, what should Vermont do, there's a whole video that could be made and how that happens. How Vermont decides how it's going to engage its counties, or its state, or its cities, for instance around Vermont Yankee, versus how Texas is going to engage its facility operator, the community of Andrews, the public that might be interested in what we do, and all of that becomes very state-specific. How Nebraska does it, not only in law, but just culturally, how Nebraska does it, versus how Texas does it, versus how Vermont does, versus California, Florida. Every one is different.It's important to have people who understand those states.Sometimes you'll have people who come in and say, oh, I'm sure it's the same everywhere. We know what to do. No.You have to come in and understand that state's culture. And even east Texas is different than west Texas. So part of understanding locating the facility in Andrews County, we needed to have, the whole process needed people who understood the whole issue and the culture of Andrews, and what resonates with that community and what's important to them, and how they like to communicate with others. Because if you communicate with them like they're from New York, you won't get anywhere. It's a different way of talking. And it's that way I think everywhere.

 Nat: What took 20 years to get where you are now?

L: It's a very good question. We started this process with the State of Texas saying we want a public facility. We want it owned and operated by the State of Texas. So the State of Texas set up something called the Low Level Radioactive Waste Disposal Authority, which was a State of Texas government agency that was supposed to develop an application for this facility and it was in Sierra Blanca, Texas, and go get that authorized and get it done. That took a bunch of years, eight, I don't know, over 10 years. Well, at the end of the day, because of the politics, it was killed. When it went up for vote, in front of the the TECQ commissioners, back then they were called TNRCC commissioners, they voted 3 to 1 to deny it. So that whole effort had to start over. And so then the State of Texas, when it realized that trying to do a public facility owned by government maybe wasn't going to work, they changed the law to allow a private entity to come in and operate it. And so Texas had to learn a lesson about its culture, and that the government was not going to be able to get the heft and the money and the energy that it took to do that. But when we brought a private operator, they were able to do it. So we had to learn that lesson in Texas.It took a while.

 N: Was siting the process difficult?

L: It was critical finding the right location.But it was also critical finding a community that was willing to.And that's part of what made Andrews County work. They saw it as an overall benefit to keep their community vibrant, to keep money coming into their community. They thought that was important. And so Andrews provided a community that was open. Without that, we probably wouldn't have even started it.

 N: What is the history of that?

L: The history of that is sketchy to me.You could probably get a more informed information about the interaction with the city, with Andrews, the city, the County, with someone who was more engaged that early in the process.

 O: I have one more question.Could you recommend any model about to provide the cooperation between the different stakeholders?For example, in Germany, they organized a council and invited all stakeholders, like from industry, trade unions, non-government organizations, representatives of the political parties. There were about 17 persons and they discussed those problems which they had. They did it for the decommissioning process of the nuclear power plant. Could you recommend maybe another model?Not a council, but how to provide the cooperation between stakeholders?

L: We have something here called residential advisory boards where you have members of the public who sit on them, members of the nuclear power plants sit on them, locally elected officials, the state agencies who have expertise will send people.And they have monthly discussions about what is going on, at say, a nuclear power plant. And then when it starts looking like there's going to be decommissioning in the next 4 or 5 years, that discussion becomes part of the residential advisory board, well in advance. And so then they'll be a sense of, well, should this community have more than the residential advisory board?Should we maybe have something at the county?Should we have the federal government come in and give us updates?So you start really early about talking about what you are going to do, when you're going to decommission, and who all in this area is interested in that?In this country, it's been my experience, certainly in Texas, that is so dependent on the local culture and what's important to them.

For instance, in Texas, we have a lot of communities that are very familiar with oil and gas production, we've been drilling oil and gas since 1901, was the first one in Texas, so there's a lot of understanding about how oil and gas industry works, there's a lot more trust with that industry, and also a lot of money goes back, right back into the schools in Texas. If you go to Pennsylvania, it's very different.They're new at it, their culture is much more politicized, and it's very difficult to make things happen there. The process that would work in Texas to advance a decommissioning, say, will probably not work in New York State. The politics are different. What makes them decide who to elect is different. How they do their business is different. Like in Colorado, for instance, oil and gas does not go back into the communities, it all goes into the general revenue in the State of Colorado, so the way you solve a problem in Colorado will have to be different in Colorado than in Texas. And so I think getting with your locals early and understanding that culture and how to best work with it, to get an endpoint and then setting up your process, would be a model. I don't know if I'm answering your question very well, but that's how we've done it in our country.

 O: Is it correct that it's not possible to recommend a universal model? We can recommend a universal strategy.Is that correct?

L: The other thing I would add is: a lot of patience.A lot of patience.Everything, everything, and we've been criticized for that in the U.S., everything is harder than you think it will be, and everything takes longer than you think it will be.Everything.And you need to be ready to make mistakes, because you think something will work and it won't.And you have to be ready to recognize that it did not work.And not lose trust and try a different way. But generally speaking, if people are working together and trusting each other, and are patient, willing to make mistake, say hey we made a mistake, we need to change this a little bit and try again, you'll get there. I think that's one of the biggest components of any plan that you would put together, any model you would put together, is recognize that this is very difficult stuff. And that the best thing to do is to get started, be open, trust, and be ready to recognize when it's not working. And to give yourself a lot of patience to get it right. And I think anyone will succeed with that. I'm optimistic.